H. S. Phoolka was a young lawyer in Delhi in 1984. At the time of the riots in the month of November he and his family were visiting Punjab, with plans to move back to Punjab from Delhi. Then on Nov. 20, 1984, they returned to Delhi from Punjab to pick up their belongings to move. But what he witnessed in Delhi moved him to change their plans and to stay back. He decided to provide whatever little legal service he could provide to the victims. In the ensuing forty years he has become the poster man of the efforts to get justice for the victims of 1984 massacre.
This interview was conducted on February 05, 2025, at his chambers in Delhi. Minor editorial changes have been made to make the report more concise and for better readability.
You have been pursuing cases of the 1984 anti-riots for the last 40 years, can you share your experiences with success, frustrations and disappointments?
As far as success is concerned now, we have been successful in sending the main culprit to jail after 34 years. Sajjan Kumar, an influential Member of Parliament, who was reelected 3 times after the genocide. He was awarded life imprisonment in December 2018, now he is jail for the last 6 years. Along with him, Mahender Yadav MLA, was also convicted for 10 years. Additionally, a Delhi Councilor of Congress Party Balwan Khokhar, also was given a life term.
Then in a separate case in 2018 itself, one person was given life imprisonment, and another one was given a death sentence in Mahipal Police Station case. In 2024, the murder case charges against Jagdish Tytler MP were restarted. He was a union minister then and a very powerful leader.
Back in 1995, another very powerful leader and junior minister HKL Bhagat was indicted by Justice Dhingra and sent to jail. He spent few days there but was out on bail, after that our witness, the widow of the Sikh who was killed in 1984 did not support in our efforts to pursue the case, which was very tragic. In my book, When a Tree Shook Delhi a detailed account is there, including the dubious role played by some of the Akali leadership and members of Delhi Gurdwara management committee. So, they were ultimately acquitted because of it. Some cases against Sajjan Kumar are still pending.
How far do you think that the struggle to book the abusers of human rights has succeeded?
We can’t call it that we have succeeded. According to the official figures 2736 were killed in Delhi, so at least 10,000 must have been involved. If out of 10,000 culprits if 5,000 were awarded a jail term, then we could claim that at least some type of justice has been served. However, so far only 50 to 60 have been booked and punished, so this is merely symbolic and this is not significant.
The Congress Party has turned a blind eye to the whole of this tragic saga, how about the other political parties?
It is wrong to say that Congress has turned a blind eye, it was orchestrated, managed and executed by them. If we expect a murderer to implicate himself, it is not going to happen. The perpetrators instead of being punished were rewarded with plum postings. The reality is that the plan was made by deep state, actually it was planned by the intelligence agencies of India. The deep state will always protect its own assets. So whichever government comes, the deep state plays its own game, and the government is dependent on it. When V. P. Singh came to power in 1989, he tried to do something but was unable. Sajjan Kumar was arrested by CBI, and officers were held as hostages by mobs, and their cars were set on fire. Only after his release were the hostages set free by hooligans. Next, when Chandrashekar became PM he was very keen to do something, but again he could not accomplish much. The reason was that the other parties were not keen on prosecution, as they did not want any beans to spill. Then A B Bajpayee came to power and by that time the cases were over. So, we recommended that a new commission be set up. Next we had a new government in power, we were expecting more from them, but they did not do much either. Then the new NDA government came into power, and they have been there for 11 years, but even they have not done much either.
On February 07, 2025, the judgement against Sajjan Kumar is to be decided, what are your feelings and expectations?
The unfortunate part of this case is that it has been spoiled by the police right from the initial stages only. Initially this particular case was closed by police, saying that there is not sufficient evidence to prosecute, consequently the case was closed in court. Then the case was reopened in 2018/19. So, because of the time gap (34 years), plus the lady victim had grown quite old, hardly remembering and recollecting the details, cumulatively it impacted on the quality of the details eye witnessed. If the judge takes these factors into consideration, including factoring in the delays in persecution, then justice will be done. But if on technical grounds it is treated as a normal case then we can’t expect much.
Post Interview comment by interviewer - The Rouse Avenue court on February 12, 2025, Convicted Kumar in a 1984 Anti-Sikh riots case.
This case was related to the killing of Jaswant Singh and Tarundeep Singh, two Sikh men in Saraswati Vihar on November 1, 1984. Arguments on the quantum of sentences in the case were heard on February 18, 2025. On Tuesday February 26, 2025, a Delhi court sentenced former Congress MP Sajjan Kumar to life imprisonment in a murder case linked to the 1984 anti-Sikh riots. Kumar is currently in Tihar Jail, where he is serving a life sentence handed by the Delhi High Court in 2018 for the killings of five Sikh men, in another case of 1984 riots.
What can you share with us about the role of law enforcement agencies in abetting and even becoming involved in perpetuating crimes?
Such a large scale massacre is only possible with actual support of law enforcement agencies. In fact, I would say that no mass killing is possible without the active support of the police. In this case also there is evidence from every source that the police was with the rioters. Wherever any Sikh tried to defend himself sitting in his home, the police came and neutralized him, seized his weapons, or arrested him and handed over the property to the rioters. I have recently released a video series “1984 Genocide Quest for Justice”, in which there is a full episode on how Sikhs were disarmed. The instructions were given to the police that wherever Sikhs are being killed don’t record the incident, don’t take any action and don’t go there. But wherever the Sikhs are defending themselves, immediately report to the senior officer, reach there in large numbers and take action with them. Here is an example. In the Patel Nagar area of New Delhi, there was an Airforce officer Group Captain Man Mohan Bir Singh Talwar, who was awarded Mahavir Chakra for his gallantry and bravery during the 1971 war.
Now the Mahavir Chakra is not a small thing, the person was a highly decorated soldier. When he defended the nation then he was given a very prestigious bravery award. (link to his story: https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/features/mvc-wg-cdr-man-mohan-bir-singh-talwar-is-known-as-the-man-who-bombed-sargodha-332316/) But when sitting in his own home he defended his children, he was thrown in jail. The mob gutted his house, the police did not come to his rescue. When the ground floor was on fire, he was on the first floor. He had a rifle and ammunition rounds, and he started firing in self-defense. The mob ran away scared, they did not dare to come close. Next, two truckloads of policemen show up. The DCP of the area headed to the scene, and even the Police Chief who was heading to Home Ministry for a meeting went there instead. The Police Chief in his reports wrote that I got a report (from DCP) that one Sikh is firing. So, I requested them to wait for me to come there. So, he went there instead of going to the Home ministry meeting. There they arrested the Group-Captain Talwar, seizing his gun, along with the remaining 70 rounds. The entire family members were also arrested, but none of the rioters were taken into custody. The mob looted the house and then burnt it down. The Group-Captain was in jail for almost a month. When the SHO of the area came to the witness box of the court, I asked him if the mob was there. He said Yes. Then I asked him why he did not arrest anyone? His reply was that we were outnumbered. The Police Chief had 20 policemen in his security team, DCP had 10 policemen, plus they had two truckloads of personnel. Ironically one Group Captain Talwar alone was enough for the mob, but two truckloads of policemen were outnumbered. This is a sad portrait of the state of affairs.
Did you feel that your efforts were being stonewalled, or deliberately derailed?
There was a big coverup, to cover up all the cases. All the guilty were rewarded and all the cases were quickly closed. We had to get the cases reopened, only to be closed again. The Supreme Court in 2018 had to file a fresh SIT look into the cases that had been closed for 34 years.
In fact, last Monday we had a case reopened in Supreme Court, there was an affidavit of a lady, Surjit Kaur of Nand Nagri, near Shahdara, whose six (6) members of the family were killed. The FIR was registered. The Commission said this is the FIR which proves the case, as there is another case which is pending so attach this FIR to that and cancel this FIR. In that FIR, neither those 6 murders were investigated, nor were any charge sheets made, or were any charges leveled.
Another case – Many different complaints and FIRs were combined together relating to 56 murders, and the charges were framed for only 5 murders. So, regarding 51 murders, no charges were framed. When the witness appeared she said, “My husband Banta Singh was killed by so and so.” The court said that we don’t have any record about Banta Singh, so what can we do? This is the way the whole cover up was done.
Can you share your assessment of the minorities being “othered” in the name of vote getting and appeasement of the majority?
Unfortunately, in a developing country like India it is not a pure democracy. All the political parties use different kinds of tactics to win elections. BJP used to appease the Hindus, and Congress used to appease the Muslims. Then Indira Gandhi decided that she will get the votes of Muslims, as well as Hindus. So, she decided to target the Sikhs for that purpose, as she cannot target Muslims. Actually, everything was planned for years together in advance. Operation Blue Star did not happen all of a sudden. It was part of the planning to malign the Sikhs and appease the Hindus. Everyone is playing this kind of politics. Indira Gandhi played it then; BJP is still playing it today. Even the Congress today is playing the old card of appeasement of Muslims.
What is your assessment of Sikh Leadership of last 50 years?
Fifty years is a long time, with lots of ups and downs. But today the Sikh Leadership has totally failed the community. I have hardly seen any Sikh who is happy with the leadership. Even their (leader’s) own supporters feel that they have let down the community.
In a politically charged environment like this, how can a small minority like Sikhs can protect their aspirations and interests?
Any minority has to make their strategies issue based. On one issue they will get support of one group, one party, on another issue they may get support of another party, and on the third issue it may be yet another party. The minority cannot follow the path of some parties being sacrosanct and untouchable. When I was an MLA in Punjab Vidhan Sabha, I had moved a resolution in the house that SGPC elections should be held. The Congress Party supported that. Before moving the resolution, I had handed over a draft resolution to the Congress minister in the assembly hall, that please show this to Chief Minister (CM), and then I will move it in the assembly. The reason is that without their support the resolution would not get passed. He showed it to the CM who concurred, then I formally moved it, and it got passed in the assembly. Then Akali’s came off saying that I had a secret meeting with the Congress Minister, and both the parties were working together behind the scenes. I replied that I met him in the open assembly hall, does it constitute a secret meeting? You have to strategize before moving a resolution and see who will support it.
That is the reality and the scenario we have to understand and adopt. In the cases of 1984 Sikhs killings, if BJP is in power today, I have absolutely no hesitation in taking their support. For SGPC elections, we needed the support of the ruling Congress party in Punjab, and I have no hesitation in taking their support. I am very clear that we have to make our strategy as the situation and circumstances demands. This is the approach Sikh leadership has to adopt. On one issue they may be taking support of one party, but for another issue it may be another party. The approach that this particular party has not supported us on this issue so, we are not talking to them ever will not work. Such a policy of untouchability with a political party is not going to work in the interests of the community.
The Sikhs with their distinct identity have been in forefront of challenging the status quo, as a result has been called names and labeled as rebellious trouble makers in India. What is your assessment of the situation? How can it be fixed?
Your assessment of the situation is not correct, and it is not true. There is lot of respect for Sikhs as well. You can go out and feel it yourself. There are individuals and groups that are targeted. Now people say Indian actress Kangana Ranaut is targeting Sikhs, so they see all the Hindus through the eyes of Kangana. That is not correct. She has her grievances, so if you bring in the whole Hindu community like that, it is not correct. So, the assessment of the situation is not wholesome.
There are people who crack jokes on Sikhs, and there are people who openly criticize those who crack jokes at the expense of Sikhs. If you check social media you will realize that the people cracking jokes have a lesser following than those opposing it. So, there are always two sides of the situation. Such a perception is only the creation of few people.
How can the Sikh leadership become aligned and put a joint effort instead of being fragmented and working at cross-purpose?
The day they feel that the interest of the community is higher than their own personal interests the things will change.
Thank you, Senior Advocate S. H. S. Phoolka for your time to address the questions and provide your candid answers. Your valuable time with succinct answers are really appreciated.
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